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Re: MY TESTIMONY
Posted by caf LW - April 27, 2004 at 11:25:52pm
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In Reply to:
MY TESTIMONY
Posted by Rodger TuttLW - April 25, 2004 at 0:19:36pm:

So, Rodger Tutt,in your "testimony" posting you say that your former belief in hell was a source of great suffering, and a nervous breakdown. Sorry to hear of your suffering, though I cannot agree with some of your conclusions regarding either its cause or its resolution. On your website, you also have an article you titled "The Intimate Sovereign Control Of God" in which you state that "God is in intimate sovereign control over what the Bible means to each individual. God also controls the extent to which we will try to change the mind of others about the meaning of the Bible, and He controls the extent to which we will be successful in changing the mind of others." Also that "We are accountable for every choice but we are not responsible for it; God is." So, apparently, in your frame of reference, God was responsible for your belief in endless suffering in hell, which you now regard as wrong, and also then God was responsible for your suffering a nervous breakdown and all that followed from it, and then God was/is responsible for your eventual conclusion that no one will be eternally condemned, and is responsible for both your advocacy and my reaction to it. There must be a fine line of semantic distinction between what God is "responsible" for and a person is "accountable" for. Since in common usage, the word "responsible" means "answerable or accountable" (Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary) I'm at a loss to sort it out either reasonably or Biblically.

I would suppose Paul's observation that "God is not a God of disorder but of peace," (1 Cor 14:33a NIV) might have some relevance to your perspective on what He is responsible for. Likewise James' assertion that "When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed." (James 1:13-14 NIV)

Who is responsible and who is accountable for sin or for speaking the truth? If I read Ezekiel 3:18 in the NIV, one who knows the truth and doesn't speak it is accountable, but if I read it in the TEV that person is responsible.

Ezek 3:18 When I say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. NIV

Ezek 3:18 If I announce that an evil man is going to die but you do not warn him to change his ways so that he can save his life, he will die, still a sinner, but I will hold you responsible for his death. TEV

In context in Ezekiel, and again in Ezekiel chapter 18, we are assured that we are each accountable for and responsible for our own beliefs, decisions and actions. Perhaps one of the problems you've had with the concept of eternal seperation from God is that you regard Him as responsible for things only people can in fact choose for themselves. It's a sober responsibility to be a creature made in the image of God with eternal possibilities.

Regarding "hell" it is certainly true that the English translations have been inconsitent and unclear in the use of the word. We probably would have been better served by the transliteration of the Hebrew and Greek words such as sheol, gehenna, hades, and tartarus. Certainly gehenna and hades do not refer to the same place or state of being at all. However, it does not follow that because English Bibles sometimes use the word "hell" in a confusing or inconsistent way there is no teaching of eternal punishment in the scriptures.

Omit or ignore the instances where English Bibles have the word "hell" and we still have dire warnings against the dangers of eternal punishment, which is what most people would understand the word "hell" to refer to.

Matt 13:41-43 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. NIV

Matt 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. NIV

Matt 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. NIV

Matt 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." NIV

Jude 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. NIV

2 Thess 1:8-10 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you. NIV

Jesus does, repeatedly (11 times specifically), use the garbage dump (gehenna) metaphor for the consequences of rebellion against God, and consistently used language that described both misery and continuity (their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched). As nothing came back from the garbage dump of Jerusalem, which constantly burned and where flesh was fed upon by worms and dogs, so no one cast into the lake of fire is coming back.

The thing is, as indicated in Craig's post, no one will "go to hell" because of God's decision, he has made it imminently possible for everyone to avoid that fate and patiently waits for people to turn to him. But there will come a necessary end to waiting, at a time known only to God.

Heb 9:27-28 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. NIV


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