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Re: One query for essay -- facts and fictions Posted by caf - January 14, 2003 at 11:48:27am 1280x1024x32 - Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:0.9.4.1) Gecko/20020314 Netscape6/6.2.2 In Reply to: Re: One query for essay Posted by essay - January 09, 2003 at 4:20:13am:
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: Mike, here are my exact, original words: : 'The Writings, on the other hand, are a combination of theology, history, inspiration, and story telling, factual and fictitious. No claim of 'literal truth' was ever made here until Fundamentalist Christians began putting their own 'spin' on the Bible.' : Now, Mike, I think, or hope, that the two of us, make that the three of us, you, caf, and myself, can agree that the phrase 'factual and fictitious' speaks for itself, and denotes a combination of the true and the fanciful, even tho' the latter could possibly have some historical foundation. A good example in modern times is the late Alex Haley's novel 'Roots', which he always admitted was mostly fiction but partly extensively-researched historical fact. : Obviously, if something is part fact and part fiction, it is not 'total literal truth'. I think, once again, the original words speak for themselves and there is no difference in meaning between the former and latter posts. I would use the word "obfuscation" to describe essay's reply to Mike's question. He asked if essay honestly changed quotes. Mike cited one example, others exist in the postings here, including paraphrasing or rewording a few of my statements but presenting them as though they are quotes and the same "go back and read what I said" is being protested, even when the original is quoted word for word in the reply. In the example Mike cited, essay, you rewrote your own comment and then presented it as the original statement. You have in some instances paraphrased or restated my comments as though they were quotes, whether by intent or by accident I don't know. An example of that was called to your attention in #752. The question of intent, seems to be what Mike asked about, and asked about again below. At least, the posts themselves qualify as "part fact and part fiction" and not "total literal truth." On the other hand, the case has not been made for branding the Bible with the same approach. At least you are consistent, essay, in handling your own words and my words and science in the same way you handle the scripture. Unfortunately, a zeal for facts and clarity and accuracy is not apparent in that consistency. You note in post #766 that Alex Hailey "always admitted" Roots "was mostly fiction but partly extensively-researched historical fact." Well and good. Did Luke say that about his writing? Did John? Did Ezra or Jeremiah? Did Daniel? All of those authors claimed, unlike Hailey, to be reporting what happened, in historical context, with no suggestion that they were padding the facts or making up anything or telling how things might have been. Clearly the ancient Jews (see Josephus again for a non-biblical first century source) and the ancient Christians (see Clement of Rome for a non-Biblical first century source) believed the reports were historical and trustworthy. Cleary the New Testament writers accepted and used the Old Testament as historical and trustworthy, including the Writings. Consider the book of Job. 90% of the book, the dialogues, is poetry. Is it then "total literal truth" (the statement you did not originally make, but came back to argue from several posts back)? No, it is not "total literal truth." Well then, is it "factual and fictitious"? No, it is not "factual and fictitious" (like "Alex Hailey's novel Roots"). Were the participants real people? Yes. Did the things described happen to Job in real history? Yes. Did the friends raise the arguments presented? Yes. Did they speak in dramatic poetry? No, the arguments have been recast as poetry, but the arguments themselves, the warrants and accusations, are intact. We do have other Biblical examples of historical events being preserved and shared as dramatic poetry in Judges 5, and Psalms 104-106, but Job is the longest such presentation. Proverbs, the collected sayings of the wise, are not to be read in the same way as prophecy, "thus saith the Lord." Nevertheless, the proverbs are what they are presented as, the advise of the Solomon to his son and the collected sayings of the wise, not "fanciful." Should one read Ecclesiastes the same way one reads Matthew or Samuel? In the sense that one reads each as what it is, yes. But Ecclesiastes doesn't present itself the same way Matthew does. It is not therefore some combination of "the true and the fanciful", rather Ecclesiastes is presented as a process of observation, examination, testing, and conclusions, a scrutiny of the various possible philosophies of life with the final conclusion being famously stated in 12:13, that having tried everything else, only God gives meaning and purpose to life. But that conclusion only has meaning if we can in fact know what God has said, which we can, it's in the Bible. Eccl 12:11-14 |
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