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In reference to 655 and 653
Posted by caf - October 10, 2002 at 4:07:29pm
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In Reply to:
re: gap theory
Posted by Louis Asbach - October 10, 2002 at 4:32:46am:

Perhaps it would be good to consider the context of Jeremiah's statements in 4:23-25. The prophecy is addressed to Judah and Jerusalem (4:5, 10-12). The prophecy is a warning about a army coming against them (4:16) that would ruin the whole land (4:20). The condition of God's people is described in 4:22 as senseless and evil. Because of that, desolation was coming upon the land (4:26). The ruin of the land of Judah is the message of this prophecy (4:27) and in the prophet's words, this causes the earth to mourn and the heavens to grow dark (4:28). All of this involved horsemen and archers (4:29) and the mourning of Jerusalem, the daughter of Zion (4:30-31). The prophecy uses language of universal catastrophe, it reminds us of God's purposes from the beginning, but it is certainly about the invasion of Judah by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar in the days of Jeremiah, not about a mysterious and otherwise unknown previous age of creation.

We read of "the beginning" in Genesis 1:1. We read of it again in Psalms 102:25 In the beginning you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. NIV The beginning was apparently when the earth and heavens were brought into being, by the work of God.
Again we read in Isa 40:21 Do you not know? Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded? NIV
This also affirms that the beginning was when the earth was founded and that God has spoken from that time.

Then we have Jesus saying, "Haven't you read,that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,' ... Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning." (Matthew 19:4, 8 NIV) Surely Jesus knew when the beginning was. He in fact also described "the beginning" as the time of the creation of the world (Mark 13:19). So Jesus taught that the beginning, the time when the heavens and earth were created, was the time when God made everything that is in six days. That at the beginning God made humankind, just as stated in Genesis 1:27. According to Genesis 1:1 and the Psalmist and Isaiah and Jesus, the beginning is when the heavens and earth were created or founded, the work of God's hands. According to Genesis 1:1-27, and Jesus, the beginning is when God made man and woman. According to Exodus 20:11 and Genesis 1:1-2:4, in six days God made the heavens and the earth and everything in them. These statements of scripture require no esoteric interpretation, no interpolation of unmentioned events or speculation. The Bible refers to no previous ages of earth, and certainly to no previous existence of humankind as anything other than the progeny of Adam and Eve. Rather, we have a direct and orderly account of the steps God took in bringing the cosmos, including mankind, into being.

The suggested meaning with regard to John 3:3, 7 in post 655 is odd, since being born again (or being born from above) is not a statement about where we come from, but about what we need to become. Jesus states that the new birth is what must happen, not what has already naturally happened.

The Bible makes definite distinctions between God, the angels of God and human beings. Humans and angels are both creations of God. Human beings do not come from angels, in any sense, nor do they become angels.

Heb 1:13-14
13To which of the angels did God ever say,
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet"?
14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Hebrews 2:16
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants. NIV

We would not want to make the kind of mistake Paul and Peter warned against,

Col 2:18-20 18Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God. NKJV

2 Peter 2:10-11
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. NIV

A few other side notes on comments in 655:

It seems odd to assert that Ezek. 28:12-19 is about the devil (as an allegory it fits the devil, but it is about the king of Tyre, verse 11) and then to say that it precedes Adam and Eve, since specific mention is made of the Garden of Eden (Ezek. 28:13), the place God planted for the man and woman to live in (Genesis 2:7-15) and care for.

When Jesus told the devil to get away from him, or behind him (Matt 4:10 or Luke 4:8KJV) they were on a high mountain (Matt 4:8, Luke 4:5), not "in the heavenly realm."

The volume of Noah's ark has not been compared to that of 56 boxcars, rather the volume of Noah's ark has been compared to 569 boxcars. There was plenty of room on a single floor of the three storied ark for all of the "kinds" of animals that have ever lived, particularly since there was no reason for Noah to take full grown specimens of larger animals. Whatever God brought to Noah to occupy the ark would fit in just fine, there was no space problem in that plan.

The reference to "the spirit" returning to God who gave it (Eccl 12:7) says nothing about pre-existence, certainly nothing about an angelic pre-existence, but rather that God is the source of our lives. Nor does Jeremiah 1:4-5 speak of Jeremiah having pre-existed, but of God having foreknown. In the same way the Psalmist says God gives us life and knows all of our days before a single one of them passes.

Ps 139:13-16
For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.
NIV


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